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	<title>Comments on: California’s Water Rights Controversy:  Should Farmers Be Allowed to Transfer Water to Developers?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%E2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/</link>
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		<title>By: fw</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-20347</link>
		<dc:creator>fw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2011 03:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-20347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This water is set aside for strictly farming!!  not developers for whatever reason they want the rights for.  the water rights are for agricultural purpose and use by farmers not a developer so the selling to someone other than another farmer and for higher cost is illegal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This water is set aside for strictly farming!!  not developers for whatever reason they want the rights for.  the water rights are for agricultural purpose and use by farmers not a developer so the selling to someone other than another farmer and for higher cost is illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: dfb</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-4052</link>
		<dc:creator>dfb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-4052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lakis: As the California Supreme Court has confirmed on a number of occasions &quot;[t]he scope and technical complexity of issues concerning water resource management are unequalled by virtually any other type of activity presented to the courts.&quot; Environmental Defense Fund, Inc. v. East Bay Mun. Utility Dist. 20 Cal.3d 327, 343-344 (1977) (EDF I); National Audubon Society v. Superior Court of Alpine County, 33 Cal.3d 419 (1983)

But if you want to get complex, consider that a number of different water rights apply with varying force in Western states. California recognizes pueblo
water rights granted to pueblos under the Spanish and Mexican governments, City of Los Angeles v. Pomeroy, 124 Cal. 597, 640-41 (1899), Hooker v. City of Los Angeles, 188 U.S. 314, 319-320 (1903), legacy riparian water rights, In re Waters of Long Valley Creek Stream System, 25 Cal.3d 339 (1979), appropriative (first in time, first in right) water rights, and water reserved by the United States government. 

Every interest becomes a special interest at some point or another. In the case of water in California, urban areas like L.A. or the San Francisco Bay area are wealthier than ag interests, when aggregated together. 


OTPR: :-)  Reading your blog is what sent me on a mission to figure out what actually happened with Dudley Ridge. I figured there was something missing from the conversation/post. I&#039;ve been meaning to go back to comment but forgot until now. :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lakis: As the California Supreme Court has confirmed on a number of occasions &#8220;[t]he scope and technical complexity of issues concerning water resource management are unequalled by virtually any other type of activity presented to the courts.&#8221; Environmental Defense Fund, Inc. v. East Bay Mun. Utility Dist. 20 Cal.3d 327, 343-344 (1977) (EDF I); National Audubon Society v. Superior Court of Alpine County, 33 Cal.3d 419 (1983)</p>
<p>But if you want to get complex, consider that a number of different water rights apply with varying force in Western states. California recognizes pueblo<br />
water rights granted to pueblos under the Spanish and Mexican governments, City of Los Angeles v. Pomeroy, 124 Cal. 597, 640-41 (1899), Hooker v. City of Los Angeles, 188 U.S. 314, 319-320 (1903), legacy riparian water rights, In re Waters of Long Valley Creek Stream System, 25 Cal.3d 339 (1979), appropriative (first in time, first in right) water rights, and water reserved by the United States government. </p>
<p>Every interest becomes a special interest at some point or another. In the case of water in California, urban areas like L.A. or the San Francisco Bay area are wealthier than ag interests, when aggregated together. </p>
<p>OTPR: <img src='http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   Reading your blog is what sent me on a mission to figure out what actually happened with Dudley Ridge. I figured there was something missing from the conversation/post. I&#8217;ve been meaning to go back to comment but forgot until now. <img src='http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Zoé Jouannelle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3936</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoé Jouannelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you are interested in water management and agriculture, I suggest looking into the G&#039;Day USA Water Tour (http://www.australia-week.com/events/usa-water-tour.html). One of the activities, which takes place in Sacramento in late January, is a half-day conference focusing on water reform, drought, and water capture and re-use particularly in regard to the environment and agriculture. This event and other Water Tour activities are free and open to academia and other water specialists, innovators, and researchers.

To register for any of the water events, please visit www.austrade.gov.au/USAWaterSeries .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are interested in water management and agriculture, I suggest looking into the G&#8217;Day USA Water Tour (<a href="http://www.australia-week.com/events/usa-water-tour.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.australia-week.com/events/usa-water-tour.html</a>). One of the activities, which takes place in Sacramento in late January, is a half-day conference focusing on water reform, drought, and water capture and re-use particularly in regard to the environment and agriculture. This event and other Water Tour activities are free and open to academia and other water specialists, innovators, and researchers.</p>
<p>To register for any of the water events, please visit <a href="http://www.austrade.gov.au/USAWaterSeries" rel="nofollow">http://www.austrade.gov.au/USAWaterSeries</a> .</p>
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		<title>By: On the Public Record</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3784</link>
		<dc:creator>On the Public Record</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 16:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe the district could replace the water, but it would come out of the contract amount that they always had.  The other farmers would have to agree to cover the sold-away amount.  I bet that doesn&#039;t happen often.  More likely, the farmer who sold away water switched to groundwater.  That&#039;s legal (unless the gw is the underground part of a river), although Kern County is getting pretty worried about it.

My impression is that the farmers in Dudley Ridge are retiring ag land, and making a profit, but not a scandalous profit.  (Except that their ability to sell the state&#039;s water is a scandal in itself.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the district could replace the water, but it would come out of the contract amount that they always had.  The other farmers would have to agree to cover the sold-away amount.  I bet that doesn&#8217;t happen often.  More likely, the farmer who sold away water switched to groundwater.  That&#8217;s legal (unless the gw is the underground part of a river), although Kern County is getting pretty worried about it.</p>
<p>My impression is that the farmers in Dudley Ridge are retiring ag land, and making a profit, but not a scandalous profit.  (Except that their ability to sell the state&#8217;s water is a scandal in itself.)</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Gulick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3752</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Gulick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 04:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hold on,someone needs to school me here.
If a property owner sells the &quot;contractual&quot; rights to the water supplying the property does the owner of the property have the ability to secure another contract from the Water District ? Really ?
Anyone who thinks a &quot;farmer/person&quot; would sell &quot;contractual&quot; water rights for the hell of it, versus making a profit, would have to be brain dead unless of course they have the opportunity to replace that supply.
By all means somebody help me understand how this works.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hold on,someone needs to school me here.<br />
If a property owner sells the &#8220;contractual&#8221; rights to the water supplying the property does the owner of the property have the ability to secure another contract from the Water District ? Really ?<br />
Anyone who thinks a &#8220;farmer/person&#8221; would sell &#8220;contractual&#8221; water rights for the hell of it, versus making a profit, would have to be brain dead unless of course they have the opportunity to replace that supply.<br />
By all means somebody help me understand how this works.</p>
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		<title>By: On the Public Record</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3732</link>
		<dc:creator>On the Public Record</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 21:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh.  Huh.  I believe that there is a 30% policy (presumably the author got that notion from somewhere), but I live and work in the field, and never hear it discussed at any level.  This was the first I&#039;ve heard of it, for example.  I don&#039;t think people are very attached to the notion that 30% of SWP water must go to ag.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh.  Huh.  I believe that there is a 30% policy (presumably the author got that notion from somewhere), but I live and work in the field, and never hear it discussed at any level.  This was the first I&#8217;ve heard of it, for example.  I don&#8217;t think people are very attached to the notion that 30% of SWP water must go to ag.</p>
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		<title>By: Lakis Polycarpou</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3725</link>
		<dc:creator>Lakis Polycarpou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 19:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3725</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, but according to the post, the State Water Project sets aside 30 percent for agriculture. If some of that water is then used for development, isn&#039;t that contradicting the &quot;30 percent&quot; policy or legal allocation? 

If you &quot;set aside&quot; something for one use and then the user uses it for something else, the distinction between the two uses either becomes meaningless or someone is doing an end-run around the system. Right? What am I missing?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, but according to the post, the State Water Project sets aside 30 percent for agriculture. If some of that water is then used for development, isn&#8217;t that contradicting the &#8220;30 percent&#8221; policy or legal allocation? </p>
<p>If you &#8220;set aside&#8221; something for one use and then the user uses it for something else, the distinction between the two uses either becomes meaningless or someone is doing an end-run around the system. Right? What am I missing?</p>
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		<title>By: On the Public Record</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3723</link>
		<dc:creator>On the Public Record</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 16:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dfb, that&#039;s an awesome summary.  I&#039;m part of the reason that people are being sloppy about the distinction between water rights and contract rights. I&#039;ll be more conscientious about that in the future.

Lakis, the complexity is real.  No one needs to complexify California water; the real lesson here is that nearly any simplistic take is wrong.

Was the water &quot;intended&quot; for use in agriculture? Depends on the scale you look at.  It was an agricultural water district in the State Water Project.  The district itself was ag; the State Water Project serves both ag and urban.  If you think of it as Dudley Ridge water, it was &quot;intended&quot; to be ag.  If you think of it as SWP water, it could be ag or urban.  If you think of it as California&#039;s water, it could have environmental, ag or urban benefits.  Is someone making a profit?  Presumably yes.  But it is not an extravagant profit of ten times the yearly cost of water.  It is probably a small profit on the total value of all their future water, with the caveats that dfb mentions in his item 7).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dfb, that&#8217;s an awesome summary.  I&#8217;m part of the reason that people are being sloppy about the distinction between water rights and contract rights. I&#8217;ll be more conscientious about that in the future.</p>
<p>Lakis, the complexity is real.  No one needs to complexify California water; the real lesson here is that nearly any simplistic take is wrong.</p>
<p>Was the water &#8220;intended&#8221; for use in agriculture? Depends on the scale you look at.  It was an agricultural water district in the State Water Project.  The district itself was ag; the State Water Project serves both ag and urban.  If you think of it as Dudley Ridge water, it was &#8220;intended&#8221; to be ag.  If you think of it as SWP water, it could be ag or urban.  If you think of it as California&#8217;s water, it could have environmental, ag or urban benefits.  Is someone making a profit?  Presumably yes.  But it is not an extravagant profit of ten times the yearly cost of water.  It is probably a small profit on the total value of all their future water, with the caveats that dfb mentions in his item 7).</p>
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		<title>By: Lakis Polycarpou</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3719</link>
		<dc:creator>Lakis Polycarpou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 14:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3719</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, now I&#039;m really confused, which makes me suspicious. I can&#039;t help but think that all this complexity serves some special interest rather than the good of everyone. 

Here&#039;s what I understand at this point: water that was &quot;intended&quot; for use in agriculture has been diverted to development and someone is making a profit on the differential (otherwise why do it?). Is that correct?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, now I&#8217;m really confused, which makes me suspicious. I can&#8217;t help but think that all this complexity serves some special interest rather than the good of everyone. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I understand at this point: water that was &#8220;intended&#8221; for use in agriculture has been diverted to development and someone is making a profit on the differential (otherwise why do it?). Is that correct?</p>
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		<title>By: dfb</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/11/30/california%e2%80%99s-water-rights-controversy-should-farmers-be-allowed-to-transfer-water-to-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-3714</link>
		<dc:creator>dfb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 09:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/?p=9095#comment-3714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A few misconceptions need to be cleared: 

1) Water rights were not sold. Rather, the farmers sold contractual rights to water. There is a major difference between water rights, which are property rights, and contract rights, which are controlled by the contract itself. 

2) Water rights, the kind that are property, can and are sold regularly just as you would sell any piece of property such as a house or car. Those transfers are generally not controversial.

3) Contractual rights are just that, the right to receive the performance of the other party. The transfer of contractual rights may also transfer duties and obligations of the seller to the buyer. 

4) Dudley Ridge and its farmers sold/transfered a contract to Tejon Ranch. Among other things, the contract says that Department of Water Resources (DWR) will deliver and sell water at a given price. In return, Tejon Ranch will need to pay the purchase price of the water, costs related to transporting that water, and some infrastructure costs. In that regard, assertions that farmers are buying subsidized water and selling it for much higher prices is only partly true. 

5) DWR only contracts with the water districts, not individual farmers. The farmers have a secondary contract with the water district for a particular allocation of water. DWR contracts are online at: http://www.water.ca.gov/swpao/wsc.cfm

6) Contracts can forbid or provide for transfers of contractual rights. They can also require consent of the other party. In this case, the farmers likely needed approval from the district to sell their allocation and perhaps even approval of DWR (I have not read their contracts,yet).

7) It is not clear yet how much the farmers and the water district actually received, that they received a profit, or what the money went toward. It is quite likely that the bulk of the money went to the water district to pay infrastructure costs. Water districts sell bonds to pay for water delivery systems within a water district. It then sets fees based on expected water sales to its farmers. Farmers dropping out of the district will upset the water district&#039;s revenue forecasts because those farmers will no longer pay those water delivery fees. This is especially true when large farms drop out. It is also possible that the farmers contractually would still be on the hook to the water district despite taking no water deliveries.

Bottom line: Please use the correct terms and differentiate between contract rights and water (property) rights. They are very different creatures of the law. 

As a public entity, Dudley Ridge is subject to California open records laws. Feel free to contact it for a copy of the contracts it has with these farmers and those contracts related to the transfers. There is a lot of drama still left in this story and it will be retold many times over in the next decade. :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few misconceptions need to be cleared: </p>
<p>1) Water rights were not sold. Rather, the farmers sold contractual rights to water. There is a major difference between water rights, which are property rights, and contract rights, which are controlled by the contract itself. </p>
<p>2) Water rights, the kind that are property, can and are sold regularly just as you would sell any piece of property such as a house or car. Those transfers are generally not controversial.</p>
<p>3) Contractual rights are just that, the right to receive the performance of the other party. The transfer of contractual rights may also transfer duties and obligations of the seller to the buyer. </p>
<p>4) Dudley Ridge and its farmers sold/transfered a contract to Tejon Ranch. Among other things, the contract says that Department of Water Resources (DWR) will deliver and sell water at a given price. In return, Tejon Ranch will need to pay the purchase price of the water, costs related to transporting that water, and some infrastructure costs. In that regard, assertions that farmers are buying subsidized water and selling it for much higher prices is only partly true. </p>
<p>5) DWR only contracts with the water districts, not individual farmers. The farmers have a secondary contract with the water district for a particular allocation of water. DWR contracts are online at: <a href="http://www.water.ca.gov/swpao/wsc.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.water.ca.gov/swpao/wsc.cfm</a></p>
<p>6) Contracts can forbid or provide for transfers of contractual rights. They can also require consent of the other party. In this case, the farmers likely needed approval from the district to sell their allocation and perhaps even approval of DWR (I have not read their contracts,yet).</p>
<p>7) It is not clear yet how much the farmers and the water district actually received, that they received a profit, or what the money went toward. It is quite likely that the bulk of the money went to the water district to pay infrastructure costs. Water districts sell bonds to pay for water delivery systems within a water district. It then sets fees based on expected water sales to its farmers. Farmers dropping out of the district will upset the water district&#8217;s revenue forecasts because those farmers will no longer pay those water delivery fees. This is especially true when large farms drop out. It is also possible that the farmers contractually would still be on the hook to the water district despite taking no water deliveries.</p>
<p>Bottom line: Please use the correct terms and differentiate between contract rights and water (property) rights. They are very different creatures of the law. </p>
<p>As a public entity, Dudley Ridge is subject to California open records laws. Feel free to contact it for a copy of the contracts it has with these farmers and those contracts related to the transfers. There is a lot of drama still left in this story and it will be retold many times over in the next decade. <img src='http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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